From: owner-the-edge-digest@ (The Edge Digested) To: the-edge-digest@robin-nvh.bvsd.k12.co.us Subject: The Edge Digested V1 #66 Reply-To: the-edge@robin-nvh.bvsd.k12.co.us Sender: owner-the-edge-digest@ Errors-To: owner-the-edge-digest@ Precedence: bulk The Edge Digested Tuesday, June 23 1998 Volume 01 : Number 066 Today's subjects from The Edge: [The Edge] On the Brink of the Edge Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device RE: [The Edge] Control & Throckmorton [The Edge] Its a Weird, Weird, Weird, Weird World! Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 06:08:36 -0500 From: "Paul J. Lareau" Subject: [The Edge] On the Brink of the Edge Every so often, I like to remind folks to drop around and take a look at our On the Edge / Over the Edge web site. We like to include as much as we can to help newcomers to Al Amarja, as well as collect a great deal of the wisdom and history that has been passed down to us from earlier generations! http://www.wavefront.com/~pjlareau/onte.html Thanks, Eric Jome, for the recent deck building walk-thru's. All three, with their comments made by others, have been preserved for posterity in our DECK BUILDING area. Please keep them coming. Besides deck building, you'll find lots of lists and articles that are original to our website, along with links to all the other web sites we can find. Do you know of any resources (both for the role playing and card versions) we don't have or that we don't link to?? Let me know. - -- Paul J. Lareau - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [POST] 135 E. Viking Dr. #301, Little Canada MN 55117 USA [HOME PAGE] http://www.wavefront.com/~pjlareau/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:46:59 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric Jome Subject: Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Aaron Brown wrote: > My thoughts were on your Throckmorton clock idea it seems to me that the > throckmorton device in only to easily destroyed. actually, it doesnt even matter if you can destroy it. if it cranks only once, then it has scored 1 point of risk free influence and helped toward victory... :) also, there is not a lot that can pop it in general. Recursive-Time Loop, Sabotage, Michiko Ishii... the list is short and everything but Sabotage is not seen that often. better to use isil ziya and Unified Conspiracy Theory to flip it... :) > I play with at least > two or three sabotages in my deck just because killing of there > resources quickly at the beggining of the game is one of the best ways > to stop them. assuming you have 4 in a 40 card deck, your odds are that you will see only 1 in your initial hand and no more than 2 or 3 in a tournament level game. considering others come packing Gang A-Gley, Intelligence Contacts, and lots of resources (or characters with bonus pull), this is not a card effective strategy. esp. when up against more than one opponent. will it help? yeah. will it go romper stomper everywhere? no. > Some decks I have made contained up to 10 sabotages in a > 40 card deck. whoa! this is what i call overkill. that leaves you only 30 other cards to play with. remember, Sabotage is not play any time, so you can only do it on the enemy turn. that means they get to put 1 in and play with it. sometimes 1 resource is all you need, esp. if you have Secrets :) and my killer Totentanz Astral deck could live with only 1 resource in play; Donna Kahlifah and Abanobi Famani are serious pull generators. i cant think of any card that should fill out 1/4 of your entire deck. even going with degenerate Pharaohs, you want a few defenses besides the baddies themselves. > Basically I am saying that thinking of the throckmorton > device as a clock would ultimately be wrong because you can just > sabotage it. Sabotage is one of my favorite cards bye the way. nah... wont even slow me down much. if you only put a sane number in, say 4, i will get 3 or 4 from devices. if you overload, i will still get 2. meanwhile, i still have Undeserved Power, Clyde, and Emer to help along the way. :) come to Gencon and i'll see if i can shave your eyebrows with the deck i posted. :) eric [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:18:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric Jome Subject: Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Trevor Stone wrote: > ... Which is why any deck which depends on the Throck Clock should have > Intelligence Contacts. Kieth Baker (a subscriber to this list) had a > tournament deck that was almost entirely Angela Reyes, Throck Devices, > Intelligence Contacts, Smear Campaigns, and Rampages... ahhh, yes. the Rampage Theory. of course, it wouldnt due very well against someone sporting a gang a-gley or two... the deck you mention would go something like this; 5 Angela Reyes 5 Throckmorton Devices 5 Clyde Throckmortons 5 Smear Campaign 5 Friend in Broken Wings 5 Intelligence Contacts 10 Rampages the goal would be to get Reyes, Device, Clyde, at least 1 Friends in Broken Wings, at least 1 Intelligenc Contacts, and the remainder rampages. on your first turn, ideally, you play the Contacts and pass. next turn, you play Angela and flip for the device and pass. turn 3, drop the Broken Wings, get in Clyde and pass with 3. (assuming you are using the Standard Clyde, not monopolist Clyde). notice, the best you can do on any turn is 2. also, Clyde is not risk free... an antimatter grenade will really cramp his style. :) so, you run up against a messy race situation. which you are counting on the Rampages to save you. now, the first couple of times you pull out the rampage, they are going to figure it out. and you will have at least a few canceled by Gang A-Gley... remember, you are trying to hold off 2 other opponents who have twice as many cards as you do. now, how can this be beat? well, attacks on clyde and angela can really slow you down. after all, they may be always Saved, but there is always "no Save" popping. and double popping (which you encourage with the Rampage) gets half your influence scoring ability flipped. and therein lies the rub. this deck doesnt help against the oldest trick in the book; why pop what you can flip? this deck lives in fear of ever being hit by Isil Ziya and Unified Conspiracy Theory... and the host of other nasty things (which i "leave as an exercise for the reader.")... if the cards are flipped, there is nothing you can do. sure, drop a rampage on Isil... she cant attack if she is already cranked (after having flipped herself). what happens when you run out of Rampages? when you show up to fight the Koanhead? when (the nightmare never ends) the enemies also come with Devices?! and a lot of conspiracies can muster some pretty evil influence tricks of their own... somewhere out there is the Speed Money deck with your name on it. :) (thats Entrepreneurs who cost 1, pull 1, with Underworld Contacts, Money Talks, and maybe even a Shake-Em Out?) ... Betty Frenum? Astral Self-Flipper? Coral Entity or Akorra Encombi? and on a final note; Rampage specifically says "Play any time before the player's Operations Phase." so, the ultimate defense against Rampage - "Alright, I have uncranked my cards... would you like to play Rampage?" and you have two options; yes or no? if yes, i pass. if no ... "ok, then i play Pharaohs Secret and call Jagannath... thats 2 for me. your turn." :) eric [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:41:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric Jome Subject: RE: [The Edge] Control & Throckmorton On Sun, 21 Jun 1998, John Thomas Craig wrote: > Other (12) > 2 Idealogical Polarization > 2 Gang A-gley > 2 Blackmail > 2 Sabotage > 2 Immunity > 1 Wheel of Fortune > 1 Newtonian Slam > > Why wouldn't you include any Orders from Tomorrow in this deck? IMHO, > Orders from Tomorrow is the best Throckmorton card there is aside from the > device. lets take a look at Orders; advantage: you can attack more than once. disadvantage: you dont get to pick who you attack, so unless you are the bomb, you will die when they pick their awesome defender... advantage: you can use a cranked character. disadvantage: the character must be a throckmorton and throckmortons do not have good hitters. none. one lukewarm body (Akio) and one weak hitter (Malak) esp. when you dont get to pick the taget. so, in my not so humble opinion, this card is just about worthless. since you dont get to pick which person is hit and you dont have any good hitters to begin with, why do you want to concentrate on hitting? esp. in the deck i listed. better off defending yourself and talking other players into doing the hitting for you! :) now, if this is not a tournament and you are sporting some Dominations, it is pretty good. but one cant Dominate in a tournament. heh. frankly, Throckmorton Domination should have been in the Standard set of cards. eric [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:05:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Eric Jome Subject: [The Edge] Its a Weird, Weird, Weird, Weird World! On Mon, 22 Jun 1998, Paul J. Lareau wrote: > Thanks, Eric Jome, for the recent deck building walk-thru's. All three, > with their comments made by others, have been preserved for posterity in > our DECK BUILDING area. Please keep them coming. no problem... i believe today we were going to get involved in an examination of a Sub-Random deck. so without further delay, lets take a look at the following; 9 The Dimension of Gnerust 2 Really Quite Angry Kid 2 John Isidor 2 Death Car 2 Isil Ziya 2 Koanhead 2 C. A. Radford, Chaos Personified 2 Tiffany Trilobite 2 Charm Bracelet 1 Rain Of Walrus 2 Funkasite 2 Gang A-Gley 2 Newtonian Slam 2 Unified Conspiracy Theory 4 Pocket Panic Button 2 The Deal With Subrandomness 4 Chaos Chancer this deck displays many of the classic tricks that Sub-Random has up its sleeve. first, there is the Deal and Chaos Chancer. drop a Chancer on some poor enemy and when they try to crank to do something, use the Deal to cancel their action. Chancer can be used as an upgrade to your own forces in an emergency or to remove human from an ally... nothing spells lovin like a Charm Bracelet, Pocket Panic Button, and Chaos Personified all in play on each other. pop her? no influence loss (not that there would be with pulling gear anyway) and _all_ the cards go back into your hand. call again next turn and score 2 more risk free! Really Quite can help speed this up a bit. sadly, Isil and Koanhead dont mix well with this... but this is a late in the game play for this deck. everyone knows that Isil and Unified will spread Control around to flip the enemy, but be sure that Sub-Random dont get it. and dont forget the other Koanhead ability. +1 Power for every Sub-Random in play. with a 5 Dimensions, the Death Car, a Chaos Chancer, and John in, Koanhead is sitting at 8/8/2! dont forget to play the Newtonian Slams after the Unified Conspiracy Theory. and Isil and Unified can also help to pump up the Funkasite... this is a great come from behind to win trick, so keep it a secret. :) dont forget that many Sub-Randoms are no longer Human which can aid a lot in trying to avoid Pharaohs... or cost you big against the Ch'i Gun. any thoughts on this deck? and dont even say "Mrs. Brinker + Charm Bracelet" ... some of us still have a little pride left you know. :) eric [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:58:53 -0600 From: "Keith Baker" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device >On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Trevor Stone wrote: > >> ... Which is why any deck which depends on the Throck Clock should have >> Intelligence Contacts. Kieth Baker (a subscriber to this list) had a >> tournament deck that was almost entirely Angela Reyes, Throck Devices, >> Intelligence Contacts, Smear Campaigns, and Rampages... > >ahhh, yes. the Rampage Theory. of course, it wouldnt due very well >against someone sporting a gang a-gley or two... >the deck you mention would go something like this; >5 Angela Reyes >5 Throckmorton Devices >5 Clyde Throckmortons >5 Smear Campaign >5 Friend in Broken Wings >5 Intelligence Contacts >10 Rampages Actually, *MY* deck didn't go anything like that. It's been a while since I've played, so I don't remember the precise numbers (and I'd have to try it a few times to fine tune it) but the ratios were much closer to: 8 Throckmorton Devices 8 Angela Reyes 10 Intelligence Contacts 18 Smear Campaigns 12 Rampages 5 Sabotages (in case an enemy Device gets the drop on you) 5 Gang-a-Gleys 14 Wheels of Fortune Way over the typical 40-card deck, but between the Wheels and the fact that Angela and the Device are unique, I never had a problem maintaining a good hand. These also let me cycle through smear campaigns if nothing good was out. I did not bother using CLyde. First off, an AM grenade will destroy him, as will any decent attacker. The point of my deck was to have nothing to defend. If anything, the immortal Throckmortons are a problem, as they provide soft targets for Rampages; I'd generally send Angela on a suicidal attack the round before I plan to use a rampage, to get her flipped and out of the way. Sure, I'd only get one influence a turn, but the Gang-a-Gleys and Intelligence Contacts provide pretty solid protection for the device, and between smear campaigns and rampages it isn't so hard to slow people down. Of course, this deck is designed for a three or four player game; it also relies on most player's natural instincts to attack SOMEONE if they can, and since my deck provides no targets, they generally attack one another, doing my work while I slowly build up my one per round. Tick... tick... Obviously, the deck has flaws. I didn't win the tournament I played it in, although I made the final round. The beauty is that it is almost entirely stress-free. If someone has a way to hose you, they will, and that's that. Otherwise, you get to sit back, take your one a turn, and occasionally throw out a Rampage to make everyone's life a little more interesting. I didn't win, but I had a great time, and that's enough for me. >so, you run up against a messy race situation. which you are counting >on the Rampages to save you. now, the first couple of times you pull >out the rampage, they are going to figure it out. and you will have >at least a few canceled by Gang A-Gley... remember, you are trying to >hold off 2 other opponents who have twice as many cards as you do. Not in my experience... in my typical games, the other two players were my greatest weapons. If you don't present a target, they'll devote all their resources and dirty tricks to hosing one another, until it's too late to stop you. And when needed, Gang-a-Gley can cancel Gang-a-Gley, which is why I have a few in the deck. Just my thoughts... - -Keith [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:13:02 +0200 From: Oliver Hertel Subject: Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device Keith Baker wrote: > 8 Throckmorton Devices > 8 Angela Reyes > 10 Intelligence Contacts > 18 Smear Campaigns > 12 Rampages > 5 Sabotages (in case an enemy Device gets the drop on you) > 5 Gang-a-Gleys > 14 Wheels of Fortune Argh, do you really play such kind of decks? We have the limitation to three for each card, resources excluded. That's much more fun to play. Who needs a KILLER deck? Do you want to WIN or do you want to have fun? ;) - -- Ciao, Oliver Hertel private homepage: http://www.tu-darmstadt.de/~st001183/ [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 05:47:30 -0500 From: "Paul J. Lareau" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device > Keith Baker wrote: > > > 8 Throckmorton Devices > > 8 Angela Reyes > > 10 Intelligence Contacts > > 18 Smear Campaigns > > 12 Rampages > > 5 Sabotages (in case an enemy Device gets the drop on you) > > 5 Gang-a-Gleys > > 14 Wheels of Fortune > Oliver Hertel wrote: > Argh, do you really play such kind of decks? We have the limitation > to three for each card, resources excluded. That's much more fun to > play. Who needs a KILLER deck? > > Do you want to WIN or do you want to have fun? ;) You know, that's a question I've often wondered about. Before getting involved, rather accidently, in OnTE, I used to play Vampire: the Eternal Struggle (V:tES). Although I have a lovely collection of V:tES cards, I had a hard time enjoying the game because it seemed that EVERYONE played decks with very repetitive cards. In fact, the attitude against playing with card limitations was so deep that the mere mention of limitation brought flamewars in the newsgroup. I once suggested that it would be fun just to play V:tES with a deck as it comes, and I was ridiculed as an "obvious newbie rugrat" (I'm 57!). The attitude has always been the other way among the OnTE players, from what I can tell. And the idea of OMNI decks was well-established early on. The highly strange, one-purpose decks are rarely seen. Quite a few folks share Oliver's and my opinion that the fun is in playing balanced themes. I wonder if it's a difference in personalities or game rules. - -- Paul J. Lareau - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [POST] 135 E. Viking Dr. #301, Little Canada MN 55117 USA [HOME PAGE] http://www.wavefront.com/~pjlareau/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:05:55 +0300 (EEST) From: Petri Wessman Subject: Re: [The Edge] Throckmorton Device On Tue, 23 Jun 1998 05:47:30 -0500, "Paul J. Lareau" said: Paul> You know, that's a question I've often wondered about. Before Paul> getting involved, rather accidently, in OnTE, I used to play Paul> Vampire: the Eternal Struggle (V:tES). Although I have a lovely Paul> collection of V:tES cards, I had a hard time enjoying the game Paul> because it seemed that EVERYONE played decks with very Paul> repetitive cards. In fact, the attitude against playing with Paul> card limitations was so deep that the mere mention of limitation Paul> brought flamewars in the newsgroup. I once suggested that it Paul> would be fun just to play V:tES with a deck as it comes, and I Paul> was ridiculed as an "obvious newbie rugrat" (I'm 57!). Paul> The attitude has always been the other way among the OnTE Paul> players, from what I can tell. And the idea of OMNI decks was Paul> well-established early on. The highly strange, one-purpose Paul> decks are rarely seen. Quite a few folks share Oliver's and my Paul> opinion that the fun is in playing balanced themes. I wonder if Paul> it's a difference in personalities or game rules. Having played both games a lot, I'd say it's more a difference of game rules. VteS cycles cards at a fast rate and cards are always replaced after playing them, while in OntE cards are a precious resource. This makes for a *big* difference in game play dynamics and deck construction. Since in VteS cards are a "cheap" resource, having N on a "valuable" card is not that big a deal. Another thing is card balance. Sorry everyone, but IMHO VteS is a lot more balanced with regards to card power (not to mention rarity). Try to make a tournament-level deck in OntE without using any rares. The same thing is quite possible in VteS. Whatever the reason is, the fact is that VteS has *no* cards banned in tournament play for power reasons, and tournament rules specify no card limits. I've run four VteS tournaments to date and play the game a lot "casually", and can testify that the no-limit environment makes for more interesting decks in VteS... many things simply would not be possible in a, say, 4-card limit environment. In OntE I don't know... OntE has more power cards, with the additional aggravation of having (almost) all of the powerful cards as rares. My impression is that it is a lot easier to build degenerate decks in OntE than in VteS... Don't get me wrong, I also love OntE as a game. My point is that VteS is a very different game, and comparing deck construction between it and OntE is pretty pointless. //Petri [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ End of The Edge Digested V1 #66 ******************************* [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge-digest [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge-digest To get off digest, subscribe the-edge [O] To post a message, send it to the-edge@robin.ml.org