From: owner-the-edge-digest@ (The Edge Digested) To: the-edge-digest@robin-nvh.bvsd.k12.co.us Subject: The Edge Digested V1 #48 Reply-To: the-edge@robin-nvh.bvsd.k12.co.us Sender: owner-the-edge-digest@ Errors-To: owner-the-edge-digest@ Precedence: bulk The Edge Digested Tuesday, April 21 1998 Volume 01 : Number 048 Today's subjects from The Edge: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks [Fwd: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks] Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks [The Edge] OTE supplements in general [The Edge] OTE, RPGs and gaming in general Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Re: [The Edge] Cloaks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:44:05 -0600 From: David Ebrey Subject: [The Edge] Cloaks Well, I finally found time to finish reading Cloaks. I was impressed. I find these sourcebook-esque supplements (such as Wildest Dreams and Weather the Cuckoo Likes) much more interesting and helpful than the adventures (although I like them too). My favorite part of the book was Chapter One, "How to do it." "One Notch Up"--the description of how to run exciting espionage--was exceptional advice (at least for me). Club St. Augustine was a good example of more realistic/deadly secret hideout. There were a couple of really funny lines in the book. The whole "World War" section was great. In general, I strongly recommend this book if you haven't bought it already. Very useful and filled with stuff to throw into your campaign (as well as a fairly good central plot--something new to OTE if I recall correctly). I am happy to see that they are continuing to create a game world as opposed to just any-old science fiction world. In other words, Tweet puts in things like the "Cloak Ethic" which explains why Cloaks don't kill other cloaks--helpful if you want to keep your players alive. My only negative comment is that the editing for missing letters is horrible. There must have been at least 10 examples; many of these confuse the meaning of the sentence (until you figure out what is going on). This isn't a serious complaint, but it does give it a less-professional feel. What do other people think of it? David [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:40:39 -0600 From: "Carl L. Congdon" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks David Ebrey wrote: > > Well, I finally found time to finish reading Cloaks. (snip!) > What do other people think of it? I enjoyed it. It offered an easy way to play espionage-centered games without having to become an expert in obscure codes and difficult mysteries. It blended nicely with the atmosphere of Over the Edge. The fringe powers were amusing, as was the updated slang. I also bought "Forgotten Lives" recently. Between the two sourcebooks, I have enough ideas for a year's worth of campaigns, at least. I have yet to stumble across a supplement for Over the Edge that didn't have something of value. Guess that's why they put out so damn few of them... [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:47:20 -0700 From: "Jay J. Allen" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Well, Not having read Cloaks yet, I might be a little off the mark, but: While I= do enjoy the supplement style material that Atlas releases, it just doesn't= fill the bill for what I need for MY games of OTE. If I want present day= adventures, I can come up with those fine myself. If I want espionage, I= can draw on some spy film knowledge and my own imagination to implant it. = What I would really rather see in supplements from Atlas is more specific= info regarding the history of the Islands major players. For example, just= what exactly WAS Monique up to during her infancy as the Islands ruler. = What groups were 'in power' and how did they get there during the 1950's ? = I want the real story(tm) concerning the history of the Island's wierdness= - and I'd like to see much more specific info on things of this nature. = While giving us plot hooks and adventure/story ideas is nice - this is the= type of thing I'm more apt to come up with myself. What I'd rather see in= supplements is more historical and specific info on how things have= developed on the Island. But thats just me. At 09:44 PM 4/20/98 -0600, you wrote: >Well, I finally found time to finish reading Cloaks. > >I was impressed. I find these sourcebook-esque supplements (such as >Wildest Dreams and Weather the Cuckoo Likes) much more interesting and >helpful than the adventures (although I like them too). =20 > >My favorite part of the book was Chapter One, "How to do it." "One Notch >Up"--the description of how to run exciting espionage--was exceptional >advice (at least for me). =20 > >Club St. Augustine was a good example of more realistic/deadly secret >hideout. There were a couple of really funny lines in the book. The whole >"World War" section was great. > >In general, I strongly recommend this book if you haven't bought it >already. Very useful and filled with stuff to throw into your campaign (as >well as a fairly good central plot--something new to OTE if I recall >correctly). I am happy to see that they are continuing to create a game >world as opposed to just any-old science fiction world. In other words, >Tweet puts in things like the "Cloak Ethic" which explains why Cloaks don't >kill other cloaks--helpful if you want to keep your players alive. > >My only negative comment is that the editing for missing letters is >horrible. There must have been at least 10 examples; many of these confuse >the meaning of the sentence (until you figure out what is going on). This >isn't a serious complaint, but it does give it a less-professional feel. > >What do other people think of it? > >David > >[O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge >[0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of >[O] (un)subscribe the-edge > > // Jay J. Allen WVU AIS - ASAP < [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:55:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Kevin Patrick Hogan Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Jay J. Allen wrote: > I want the real story(tm) concerning the history of the Island's > wierdness real story(tm)? Even when I write stuff for my games, I have several alternate real story(tm)s. My guess is that there is no real story(tm) - or there are several. It's all the same. --K (dromedan@umich.edu) "Kate said the flowers of intolerance and hatred are blooming kind of early this year someone's been watering them" --Robyn Hitchcock "The Devil's Radio" [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:28:24 -0700 From: "Jay J. Allen" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Bah, Thats my point. I just wish Atlas would get together and build a more specific history for the Island and the power players involved. Kinda hard to design a realy historically meaty campaign/fiction with so much being left unspecified. I don't like it. At 09:55 AM 4/21/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Jay J. Allen wrote: > >> I want the real story(tm) concerning the history of the Island's >> wierdness > >real story(tm)? > >Even when I write stuff for my games, I have several alternate real >story(tm)s. > >My guess is that there is no real story(tm) - or there are several. It's >all the same. > > --K (dromedan@umich.edu) > >"Kate said >the flowers of intolerance >and hatred >are blooming kind of early this year >someone's been watering them" > > --Robyn Hitchcock "The Devil's Radio" > > >[O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge >[0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of >[O] (un)subscribe the-edge > > // Jay J. Allen WVU AIS - ASAP < [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:31:52 +0500 From: "Shawn Lockard" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks > Bah, > > Thats my point. I just wish Atlas would get together and build a more specific > history for the Island and the power players involved. Kinda hard > to design a realy historically meaty campaign/fictio> Thats not really the way that OTE works, IMHO. Giving you more than the barest tastes of the "history" confines and shrinks the setting, saying that only finite things are possible. OTE tells you the power players, the obvious ones, and lets you fill in the rest. Besides, with the Cut Ups machine, the Throckmorton Device, etc, change reality and history on a day to day basis, so whats the point? Free your mind of control :) Shawn Lockard NCS System Admin & Webmaster - http://www.ncs.pvt.k12.va.us WEDGE E-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2287/ Steve Jackson Games http://www.sjgames.com MIB #1701 [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:49:58 -0700 From: "Jay J. Allen" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Well.... I think I might be misunderstood here. What I'm asking for isnt a total= framing of things. But when adventures are published in supplements, I= would like to see more specifics is all. ie instead of 'So and so has= infiltrated the glorius lords to stop some machinations of the gangs leader= etc...' I'd rater see more historically bound info on just what Avan's= machinations are etc. I want more detail - I understand the reasoning for= providing an open framework, and yes I have understood how OTE works for= quite some time now thank you very much. I just don't see why no specifics= or really in depth information are ever included in supplements. I'd say= that the closest to what I'm looking for is found in 'Weather the Cukoo= Likes' or *maybe* wildest dreams - but the real problem is, it's difficult= with so little framework to weave plots together into somekind of= historically accurate backdrop (which is what is lacking). I'm looking for= more consistency in campaigns...you know - long running ones etc - with= more coallation between events so as to actually make the Island a living,= breathing entity with a rich history and heritage. I can't do that without= more historical details. Period. Anyway, I'm sure people will disagree= with me on this, and that's fine. Also, Im not meaning to flame anyone at= all here. Just pointing out what *I* would find usefull in game= supplements. Sorry if I sound harsh here also - I'm just getting= frustrated that no one can seem to understand easily what I'm looking for. = IMHO, OTE is not a 'generic' setting game in any sense of the word - and= having a more richly detailed world/setting with historical consistency and= coalation would improve the game greatly. I wish we would see supplements= with more of that kind of info.=20 At 11:31 AM 4/21/98 +0500, you wrote: >> Bah, > >> >> Thats my point. I just wish Atlas would get together and build a more= specific >> history for the Island and the power players involved. Kinda hard=20 >> to design a realy historically meaty campaign/fictio>=20 > >Thats not really the way that OTE works, IMHO. Giving you more than=20 >the barest tastes of the "history" confines and shrinks the setting,=20 >saying that only finite things are possible. OTE tells you the power=20 >players, the obvious ones, and lets you fill in the rest. Besides,=20 >with the Cut Ups machine, the Throckmorton Device, etc, change=20 >reality and history on a day to day basis, so whats the point? > >Free your mind of control :) > >Shawn Lockard < < >NCS System Admin & Webmaster - http://www.ncs.pvt.k12.va.us >WEDGE E-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2287/ >Steve Jackson Games http://www.sjgames.com MIB #1701 > >[O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge >[0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of >[O] (un)subscribe the-edge > > // Jay J. Allen WVU AIS - ASAP < [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:25:33 -0700 From: Florian Merx Subject: [Fwd: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks] > What I would really rather see in > supplements from Atlas is more specific info regarding the history of > the Islands major players. For example, just what exactly WAS Monique > up to during her infancy as the Islands ruler. What groups were 'in > power' and how did they get there during the 1950's ? I want the real > story(tm) concerning the history of the Island's wierdness - and I'd > like to see much more specific info on things of this nature. I concur. Even though Over The Edge is supposed to be surreal and weird, I am cursed with players who aren't really into a Borroughs kind of game. So I tried adapting "V." by Thomas Pynchon, a conspiracy/espionage book, to Al Amarja, but for various reasons, it didn't work out. One of the reasons was the lack of material on the history of the island. Of course, I could have made that all up by myself, but time is very valuable resource. Therefore, a little data on the background, history, rationalizations, whatever would be greatly appreciated. Have Fun, Flo fmerx@vektor.echo.lu [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:55:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Kevin Patrick Hogan Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks > Bah, > > > Thats my point. I just wish Atlas would get together and build a more > specific history for the Island and the power players involved. Kinda > hard to design a realy historically meaty campaign/fiction with so much > being left unspecified. I don't like it. But that's just what I (and others) *like* about the setting. So many things *could* be going on. To set an (A) This is what happened is just so much more limiting than (A) this might have happened (B) this could have happened (C) this may very well be happening I have no objection to the latter. But too many people seem to get rigidly set on the "this is canon, all else is *heresy*" mindset for me to really mind the lack of concreteness. I just specify what needs to be specified, and it's canon to me (if I want it to be). I think it fits well with the setting. To each their own. --K "i wait for eternity or basingstoke or reading" --Robyn Hitchcock "I Often Dream of Trains" [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:37:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Joshua Kronengold Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Jay J. Allen writes: >Thats my point. I just wish Atlas would get together and build a >more specific history for the Island and the power players involved. >Kinda hard to design a realy historically meaty campaign/fiction with >so much being left unspecified. I don't like it. The problem is that, the edge being what it is, the "Real Story" isn't the same in every game, and for that matter, can (given certain influences) change from moment to moment (ever hear of the Plaza of Painted Rocks?) That said, it would be nice to have some more history, real or no. - -- mneme@dorsai.org Joshua Kronengold |\ _,,,--,,_ ,) - ---^---- "What part of 'Pthhhrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr' /,`.-'`' -, ;-;;' /\\ didn't you understand?" -- Me |,4- ) )-,_ ) /\ - -/-\\\-- AKA mneme at mcny.com '---''(_/--' (_/-' [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:33:24 -0600 From: David Ebrey Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks 1) Check out Forgotten Lives, which has a five-page historical section in the adventure, "Jackboot Stomp." 2) In general, I agree with Jay. Adventures might be ingenius, but they don't add any richness to the world. They just improve one particular section of a campaign. OTE has a fair amount of culture and background, but it could use more IMO. I think Jay has more interest in History than I do. What is really useful, IMO, is anthropolgy. Tell me how people act. Tell me what sorts of things people where. What is a typical life like? How do people greet each other? Some of this is covered in the main book, but obviously not all of it. And of course History helps to define how we are today, but not completely. I definitely want history insofar as it is necessary in understanding why Al Amarajians are the way they are. And of course any anthropology isn't "authoritative." It is merely empirical. As is true with History. Whether there is a "real history," or not is irrelevant. What is relavant is: (1) What martians think is the history, (2) what "actual history" would help a campaign. What I mean by (2) is: even if you want to say history is malable, it is nice to have some sort of history from which to build adventures. Maybe this isn't a "real history," but all that matters is that it is true insofar as it can create a story. Again, take a look at that adventure in Forgotten Lives. It sets up some history and then uses it as a framework for the world. What I would like to see is sort of an "Insider's Guide to Al Amarja." Perhaps it could be written as a martian student's work in comparitive Anthropology or perhaps as an insider's Travel Guide Book. Either way, I see a definite need for creating a richer Al Amarja. The other thing I would like to see is "structural sourcebooks," like Weather the Cuckoo Likes. These set up organizations that you can have involved in hundreds of adventures. These also create a richer world rather than just giving you one idea for one story. For example, I like "Deep Troubles" in The Myth of Self for giving the background on the Deeps. I would love sourcebooks on the Pharoas or the Movers (oh, that would be a fun one). These could describe the relevant Major players as well as the history, general structure and mores. Anyway, enough rambling. I've lost this message once already (damn computers and their errors), so I better send it off before this one dies. I am looking forward to other's comments. David [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:21:59 -0600 From: "Carl L. Congdon" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks David Ebrey wrote: > > 1) Check out Forgotten Lives, which has a five-page historical section in > the adventure, "Jackboot Stomp." A most excellent adventure. > 2) In general, I agree with Jay. Adventures might be ingenius, but they > don't add any richness to the world. They just improve one particular > section of a campaign. OTE has a fair amount of culture and background, > but it could use more IMO. I think Jay has more interest in History than I > do. What is really useful, IMO, is anthropolgy. Tell me how people act. > Tell me what sorts of things people where. What is a typical life like? > How do people greet each other? Some of this is covered in the main book, > but obviously not all of it. And of course History helps to define how we > are today, but not completely. I definitely want history insofar as it is > necessary in understanding why Al Amarajians are the way they are. > > And of course any anthropology isn't "authoritative." It is merely > empirical. As is true with History. Whether there is a "real history," or > not is irrelevant. What is relavant is: (1) What martians think is the > history, (2) what "actual history" would help a campaign. What I mean by > (2) is: even if you want to say history is malable, it is nice to have some > sort of history from which to build adventures. Maybe this isn't a "real > history," but all that matters is that it is true insofar as it can create > a story. Al Amarja definitely needs a "history" and an "anthropology" of some sort. I'd prefer it if the authors prefaced it with something like: "This is what most people believe happened and can generally verify. What actually happened is up to you." Plus, remember, in this game it's not only easy to change what you don't like, in some cases it can become almost mandatory! That said, some more "canon" history and anthropology would be nice, if for nothing else than to give the GM ideas for his/her version of Al Amarja. And I loved "Dreaming on the Verge of Strife" precisely because it gave me an interesting new conspiracy to play with. Over the Edge needs more supplements like Forgotten Lives. Not that I would turn up my nose at sourcebooks like "Cloaks" (I bought it after all), but Forgotten Lives had, page for page, more useful ideas and information than "Cloaks". YMMV [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:54:09 -0600 From: "Keith Baker" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Hey all-- Personally, I enjoy historical chaos. What I like about OTE is the fact that so much of it is left to the GM; the island can be a completely different place in the hands of two different gamemasters. Just from reading various list and web posts, I know that a lot of people have a very different vision of the Movers than I do. The beauty of the game is that it doesn't matter. No-one is right and no-one is wrong, because no-one has said THIS IS HOW IT MUST BE. In my opinion, Over the Edge and its supplements have always leaned towards suggesting a vast number of ideas and letting the GM choose the one that best fits his or her vision of the island. In "Dreaming on the Verge of Strife", I don't say what the Circle is up to, or whether they're actually a Mover cell. You can bet that I know the answer, at least as it applies to my world. But I didn't want to force an answer that would make the group unworkable for other GMs. Is Cheryl D'Aubainne a shaper? I like the idea, and if you haven't used Cheryl in your campaign, it might give you a good hook to bring her in. On the other hand, if Cheryl is already part of your campaign, it could be totally inappropriate. Nothing is true -- everything is permitted. I also like the fact that my *players* don't know what's going on. A lot of what I enjoy about playing or running OTE is the sense of mystery, of being a little person in a world of vast conspiracies. I always strive to give my players the impression that there is much more going on than they ever really know about. It helps that there is no bible to go by; even those who are also GMs and who thus have read all the suppliments don't know what the Movers are up to in *my* version of the island. Who's actually a shaper? What's the relationship between Anastasia Crowley and Sir Arthur? I tend to shy away from some of the better-known/defined plotlines just because I like to keep my players guessing. I've never actually bothered with the Thockmorton Device for just this reason; people expect it, so in my game the threat from the future is actually a group of highly evolved cockroachs who have one-upped that pesky exterminator. On the other hand, I do agree with David's point about anthropology and feel that an attempt to develop the cultural setting a little more couldn't hurt. The steps towards this in existing suppliments are very interesting, and I'd certainly like to see more done with it. I also prefer the suppliments that focus more on adding a group of stories to the world instead of adventures that focus on one single event; I enjoyed Wildest Dreams and "Deep Troubles". On the other hand, I'm not sure *I'd* want to see too much detail on the Movers, or even the Pharoahs; IMHO, the mystery surrounding these groups is part of what keeps my players intimidated. When no-one knows who the power players are supposed to be, no-one knows if Avan Bloodlord might not actually be one of the leaders of the Hermetic Cell... or whatever. Anyhow, I'm rambling. Later... - -Keith [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:16:14 +0500 From: "Shawn Lockard" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks > On the other hand, I do agree with David's point about anthropology and > feel that an attempt to develop the cultural setting a little more couldn't Agreed. To put it simply, source material for Al Amarja needs to be a lot more effect than cause. We need to know what these various groups do, and more groups to the mix, but we do not need to know these groups histories from day one on. You don't have to retro-actively fix continuity that you don't break. That, and the best gaming worlds (and fiction worlds) are ambiguous. You _don't_ know whats coming unitl you get there, and everything can be expained more that one way. Thats how real life works, and to breath life into roleplaying, the setting should work that way. Really. Shawn Lockard NCS System Admin & Webmaster - http://www.ncs.pvt.k12.va.us WEDGE E-Zine: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/2287/ Steve Jackson Games http://www.sjgames.com MIB #1701 [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:23:54 -0700 (PDT) From: David Thomas Fisher Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks > On the other hand, I do agree with David's point about anthropology and > feel that an attempt to develop the cultural setting a little more Agreed. To put it simply, source material for Al Amarja needs to be a lot more effect than cause. We need to know what these various groups do, and more groups to the mix, but we do not need to know these groups histories from day one on. You don't have to retro-actively fix continuity that you don't break. That, and the best gaming worlds (and fiction worlds) are ambiguous. You _don't_ know whats coming unitl you get there, and everything can be expained more that one way. Thats how real life works, and to breath life into roleplaying, the setting should work that way. Really. I have held an opinion about this for a while. My feeling is that things should start out somewhat ambiguous and vague in the GM's mind, but she should at least start out with an amorphous idea. The players should start out with no preconceptions, and this is a good way of making sure not too much is given away too early anyway. As play continues, the GM should make some decisions, perhaps thinking some things out, perhaps others on the spur of the moment, and that way make the history more concrete, and therefore shape the future events. You cannot have effect without cause, but if you don't know what effects you'll want, don't make decisions about the causes. Anyway, that's just my opinion. Other people may prefer to hold different ones. - -- David Fisher (davefish@cory.eecs.berkeley.edu) "Seduced, shaggy Samson snored./ She scissored short. Sorely shorn,/ Soon shackled slave, Samson sighed,/ Silently scheming/ Sightlessly seeking/ Some savage, spectacular suicide." - Stanislaw Lem, "The Cyberiad" [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:09:55 -0500 From: "Paul J. Lareau" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Joshua Kronengold wrote: > Jay J. Allen writes: > >Thats my point. I just wish Atlas would get together and build a > >more specific history for the Island and the power players involved. > >Kinda hard to design a realy historically meaty campaign/fiction with > >so much being left unspecified. I don't like it. > The problem is that, the edge being what it is, the "Real Story" isn't > the same in every game, and for that matter, can (given certain > influences) change from moment to moment (ever hear of the Plaza of > Painted Rocks?) > That said, it would be nice to have some more history, real or no. So write it, and share it with everyone. The folks that write these things are just like me and you. I suspect that if everyone started by writing down in detail the gist of their best, most inventive campaign, then compared it against "known history" in the Atlas books, altered the text to mesh, and put it out on the web, we would all enjoy it, and put new ideas to good use. In fact, that's how many of the stories in the books got written. I have to admit, this is the reason I have sorta dropped out of game playing of late ... I found that the real fun was writing stories, not flipping cards. - -- Paul J. Lareau - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [POST] 135 E. Viking Dr. #301, Little Canada MN 55117 USA [HOME PAGE] http://www.wavefront.com/~pjlareau/ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:33:29 -0600 From: David Ebrey Subject: [The Edge] OTE supplements in general Keith Baker wrote: >Personally, I enjoy historical chaos. What I like about OTE is the fact >that so much of it is left to the GM; the island can be a completely >different place in the hands of two different gamemasters. >In my opinion, Over the Edge and its supplements have always leaned towards >suggesting a vast number of ideas and letting the GM choose the one that >best fits his or her vision of the island. Yes, but how does there being many possiblities stop there from being "solid" structural and historical material. No game supplement is mandatory. No game rule is mandatory. Everything in the OTE book is suggestion. Are the Glugs bad because they imply a strict historical progression from pre-humans to humans? No, since there is nothing stopping a GM from ignoring the Glugs, and then creating a new history that involves time travling robots creating humans for the seeds for the robot's own existence. On the other hand, if you are worried about seeming too dogmatic, then I suggest a more empirical style of writing, as is found in many Earthdawn books. Have the book be a history of Al Amarja as written by a Professor at the University. Have side bars (not by the professor) on "What may have really happened." You could throw out hundreds of ideas that could be the basis for adventures and whole series. None of them are canonical because they are all just the writings of some random Professor, who is merely doing the best he can (or maybe he is lying through his teeth at the behest of the Mrs. D'Aubainne). My point is that "substance narrows our possibilities" is a weak argument. All material is merely to improve our games; everything is optional. IF they publish more power-structure, history and anthropology we can discard what we don't like; it can only help us. (note that I am making a general argument here; I am not trying to attack Keith Baker's points specifically; most of his ideas I thought were insightful) >I always strive to give my >players the impression that there is much more going on than they ever >really know about. I try to do this as well. I have always thought that GMs have a sort of mythical feeling to them that is destroyed if the players actually realize how little the GMs know. >hurt. The steps towards this in existing suppliments are very interesting, >and I'd certainly like to see more done with it. I also prefer the >suppliments that focus more on adding a group of stories to the world >instead of adventures that focus on one single event; I enjoyed Wildest >Dreams and "Deep Troubles". I think most of this have agreed to this analysis of what is good. _Weather the Cuckoo Likes_ cannot be underestimated; it is one of the best roleplaying supplements, IMO. My-thought-provoking-question-for-the-day: what is implied by two real people (Terry Giliam as "A Famous Movie Director" and Doc Cross as himself) being included in a fictional group (the Cut-Ups) in a fictional world (OTE)? What does this imply about our boundries between fiction and reality? On the other hand, I'm not sure *I'd* want to >see too much detail on the Movers, or even the Pharoahs; IMHO, the mystery >surrounding these groups is part of what keeps my players intimidated. The trick--and I admit this would be a trick--is to give useful information without being dogmatic. e.g., "The Movers COULD be this. Wouldn't it be interesting if... Here is a plot assuming that... One possible orginazational scheme is... Some think the Movers started as..." When >no-one knows who the power players are supposed to be, no-one knows if Avan >Bloodlord might not actually be one of the leaders of the Hermetic Cell... >or whatever. Sure, but you can give a possibly helpful description of the Bloodlords without proclaiming, "Avan Bloodlords is not a Mover, and if you run a game with him as a Mover then Jonathon Tweet with Robin Laws will break down your door and rip your mind out." BTW, I am enjoying reading about what people would like OTE's direction to be. Even if it doesn't affect the product line, it helps me understand how other people enjoy the game. David [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:43:57 -0600 From: David Ebrey Subject: [The Edge] OTE, RPGs and gaming in general >So write it, and share it with everyone. The folks that write these things are >just like me and you. That is seriously underestimating the work required to write a quality game supplement. Some of game supplements might be somewhat easy, but many of them require research, long projects require extraordinary organizational skills and they all require the ability to write in clear prose (something which most of us lack). I suspect that if everyone started by writing down in >detail the gist of their best, most inventive campaign, then compared it against >"known history" in the Atlas books, altered the text to mesh, and put it out on >the web, we would all enjoy it, and put new ideas to good use. I haven't researched much OTE material on the web--and I have found some good stuff. But in general I don't look for stuff on the web because the quality is so low. The helpful/slush ratio is way to low. >In fact, that's >how many of the stories in the books got written. If so, it was probably by someone who writes for a living. They are used to writing quickly. Most people, myself included, cannot write nearly as quickly as a journalist, hence if a lot of work is not put into the project it is generally mediocre. >I have to admit, this is the reason I have sorta dropped out of game playing of >late ... I found that the real fun was writing stories, not flipping cards. IMO, the beautiful thing about games is human interaction. Fiction involves indirect human interaction; in general good art gives you the feeling of interacting with someone. But games make this more direct: they are fundamentally social. By all means, write fiction if you want. But there is something to be said for using professional level material so you can spend more time gaming and less time creating. This also allows you to put your creative energies into things more central to the plot. ("How would the Movers react? Well, I had better decide the entire structure and motivation of the Movers...") David [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:27:31 -0300 From: Gregory Blake Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Another point about the history of Al Amarja. It is quite changing as time goes on. Who knows what changes the Throckmorton Device can make in the past. Or maybe the cut-up machine. Hey, even the top 3 floors of the hotel disappeared in one of my games. Who knows what can happen to the rest of history. :) Peace, Greg - -- P         Gregory Blake | "And the circle grows stronger..."        P L                      Peace * Love * Unity * Respect                      L U        email: gblake@mediaone.net | url: http://www.crl.com/~snooze/     U R             whodp://ding.healthgate.com/snooze | ICQ# 1367921            R [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:46:24 -0600 From: tstone@robin-nvh.bvsd.k12.co.us Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Gregory Blake said: >Another point about the history of Al Amarja. > >It is quite changing as time goes on. Who knows what changes the >Throckmorton Device can make in the past. Or maybe the cut-up machine. > >Hey, even the top 3 floors of the hotel disappeared in one of my games. >Who knows what can happen to the rest of history. :) > Though the Throck-ups Machine (well, that's actually more of a toaster, but you get hte point) can change the past, the fundamental structure of the history doesn't change. Most of the time, Monique stays in charge, the Hermetics don't disappear off the face of the island, the Tridents don't end up as strong allies of the Gladsteins and Glorious Lords. Though the words change, the chapter subjects don't really. Not to say that some campaigns can't have vastly different pasts. It's just that history maintains its shape, just the way a substance does not suddenly morph into something else even though its electrons move quite randomly. I agree that the best way to go about giving history info is to present it as writings of historians/professors/travel guide writers/etc. You could even have conflicting histories written by different conspiracies and leave it to the reader (or player) to attempt to decipher it. I haven't roleplayed a whole lot (and have yet to get a chance with OtE), but I tend to prefer a world with a rather general historical outlook so you have an idea as to some of the factors determining the motives of some groups, but with the historical details left loose so you can pick on one and use it in a campaign. In OtE this should be pretty slack, since history contains a fair amount of subjectivity, hence historians and professors should write the material rather than know-all GMs... =-=-=-= Trevor Stone =-=-= aka Flwyd =-=-= tstone @ robin . ml . org =-=-=-= Eclectic philosopher, New Vista computer admin, gamer, witster, esotericist http://robin.ml.org/~tstone/ Thou mangled mad-bread hedge-pig! Most people wouldn't know music if it came up and bit them on the ass. -- FZ [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ End of The Edge Digested V1 #48 ******************************* [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge-digest [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge-digest To get off digest, subscribe the-edge [O] To post a message, send it to the-edge@robin.ml.org