From: owner-the-edge-digest@ (The Edge Digested) To: the-edge-digest@robin-nvh.bvsd.k12.co.us Subject: The Edge Digested V1 #22 Reply-To: the-edge@robin-nvh.bvsd.k12.co.us Sender: owner-the-edge-digest@ Errors-To: owner-the-edge-digest@ Precedence: bulk The Edge Digested Friday, January 16 1998 Volume 01 : Number 022 Today's subjects from The Edge: [The Edge] Jonathan's Reply Re: [The Edge] Jonathan's Reply [The Edge] David's corrections [The Edge] Bad news about my OTE email campaign idea [The Edge] Thundarr the Barbarian ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:04:34 EST From: AtlasGames Subject: [The Edge] Jonathan's Reply This is a multi-part message in MIME format. - --part0_884639073_boundary Content-ID: <0_884639073@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Forwarded verbatim, here is Jonathan Tweet's reply to the interesting question re: Nietzsche and Throckmorton in OTE. Enjoy! - -jn - --part0_884639073_boundary Content-ID: <0_884639073@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: JoT Return-path: To: AtlasGames@aol.com Subject: Re: Hey Jonathan... Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:32:16 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit thanks for forwarding this to me. Nietzsche's phrase "will to power" does indeed refer to an individual, especially one capable of overcoming the expectations of tradition and conformity (also known as a "child" in Nietzche's ontogeny, the phase that comes after the camel and lion phases). It's indeed ironic that this phrase would be tied to the Throckmorton Device. Here's why I did it. . . 1) Clyde Throckmorton is, in his heart, a total control freak. His doing his own thing means no one else doing their own things. The Throckmorton Device can be seen as a product of Throckmorton's will, a will and a desire to control so strong that it reaches into the future to create a device that will reach into the past to bring him to power. "Will to power" pretty much says it. 2) OTE doesn't always play straight and fair. Nietzsche got misused by the Nazis, and people misunderstand the phrase "will to power," but it's a phrase that most people will react to in the way the Nazis meant it and not the way Nietzsche meant it. - -Jonathan - --part0_884639073_boundary-- [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:31:06 -0600 (CST) From: David Ebrey Subject: Re: [The Edge] Jonathan's Reply First I will respond to Jonathan Nephew, and then to Jonathan Tweet. I wrote: > >>This phrase -- The Will to Power -- is found in Nietzsche. The way I >>understand Nietzsche's use of this phrase, it refers to one's capacity to >>exert oneself. The Nazi's used altered versions of Nietzsche's texts to >>make Nietzsche seem like he supported a German Nation-State; however, >>Nietzsche supported exerting oneself as a way of exerting who you are -- >>whoever you are. It is sort of a way of exerting one's individuality. So I >>find it strange that the Throckmorton Device would be subtitled "The Will to >>Power," since it is a force of conformity. Does some author other than >>Nietzsche use this phrase, The Will to Power? Did the Nazis use it a lot, >>and that is what this is referring to? Or did Tweet and Laws simply have a >>different interpretation of Nietzsche than myself? Any ideas? > Jonathan Nephew wrote: > >Is will to power >something native to an organism, a nation, a species, or even to a "meme"? I hate to ask a vocab question, but my normal Dictionary and my Dictionary of Philosophy did not have "meme." So what is "meme"? It has been a while since I read Nietzsche, but it seems to me that the will to power refers to expressing non-conformity. So for a nation or a species to have a will to power it would have to be able to (a) express (which maybe a nation can do, but can a species?) and (b) it would have to be able to not conform. When we are speaking of a nation in this manner, I do not think we should think of a nation as a group of people, rather as a distinct entity. Which brings up the question of whether the nation can "not conform." This seems reasonable: if we assume that Nations are to be compared to other Nations, then expressing themselves differently and breaking tradition would be exerting a will to power. Perhaps the United States and the USSR would be nations that at least briefly exerting their will to power. The question still remains whether nations can have a will: probably not by most definitions of "will". But this seems to be a more trivial concern: the idea remains the same, even if the names and functions are slightly different. >The Throckmorton device in a sense is the incarnation of will itself, a bundle >of intention--not just a world view but innately the aggressive expansion that >worldview--a sort of super-meme that really does have a life of its own. Not >the word made flesh, but the will made machine. If what Jonathan Tweet said below is correct (which is how I understand Nietzsche), it is not merely expanding a worldview (and it is not expanding the "right" worldview), but expanding _your_ worldview. So the question is to what extent does Clyde Throckmorton (which is practically the same as the Throckmorton device, right?) do what he does because he thinks that homosexuals, intellectuals, modern art, modern music, etc. are evil (which is what I think many people _sincerely_ believe, sadly enough) and to what extent does he merely see them as bad (i.e., does he think he ought to hate them, or does he hate them as a way of expressing his own individuality). If it is the former -- if he thinks that these things ought to be hated -- then I would say he is not expressing a will to power. But if he actually is expressing himself and not some other idea when he hates these people and ideas, then I would say it is a will to power. One way to think of this is does he want to become world dictator because he wants to be dictator (it is an end in itself), or because by being a dictator he can bring about the ideology he follows? It says that Clyde is "dreaming of world conquest" (p. 220), but it does not say if this is the end in itself. I presumed that he thought of his goals as an ideology, not as a personal expression. Doesn't that seem to imply that it is not an non-conforming expression, and thus not a will to power. Jonathan Tweet wrote: >Nietzsche's phrase "will to power" does indeed refer to an individual, >especially one capable of overcoming the expectations of tradition and >conformity (also known as a "child" in Nietzsche's ontogeny, the phase that >comes after the camel and lion phases). It's indeed ironic that this phrase >would be tied to the Throckmorton Device. Here's why I did it. . . > >1) Clyde Throckmorton is, in his heart, a total control freak. His doing his >own thing means no one else doing their own things. The Throckmorton Device >can be seen as a product of Throckmorton's will, a will and a desire to >control so strong that it reaches into the future to create a device that will >reach into the past to bring him to power. "Will to power" pretty much says >it. You, Jonathan, created Clyde, so I suppose you are the authority. But I did not get the sense that Clyde's primary goal is for him to be in charge. I am reading into the text, but I thought he was supposed to be someone who dreams about world conquest for a particular reason: so he can impose his ideology on other people. His action is not one of non-conformity and tradition-shattering; rather, the opposite: it is an action of conformity creation and tradition upholding. It is easy to think that any sort of action is an expression, but I do not think that was Nietzsche's view. As some sort of weak textual support (from Nietzsche's _On the Genealogy of Morality_, Essay 2 Aphorism 12): ... the essence of life [is] its will to power; we overlook the prime importance which the spontaneous, aggressive, expansive, re-interpreting, re-directing and formative powers have, which 'adaptation' follows only when they [these powers] have had their effect... I do not think that Throckmorton's actions are re-interpretive, re-directive or formative. Rather he is adapting to the formative powers of whoever created the views he holds. >2) OTE doesn't always play straight and fair. Nietzsche got misused by the >Nazis, and people misunderstand the phrase "will to power," but it's a phrase >that most people will react to in the way the Nazis meant it and not the way >Nietzsche meant it. Understood. Of course, like the Nazi's misuse of term "Aryan," it sort of hurts to see the Nazi's misuse of Nietzsche's term since it creates misconceptions. Nietzsche gets a lot of flak for views he did not have (his sister -- a Nazi -- got a hold of his works and "edited" them), so I have a certain impulse to careful to describe terms like "Aryan" and "Will to power". So I don't know if this ended up sounding aggressive toward Nephew and Tweet's ideas, but it was not meant that way. I am an enthusiastic arguer, and I particularly enjoy playing through the ideas OTE sets up... What is with talking about Nietzsche at early hours of the morning? It is approaching three AM for me... David As an interesting side note Nietzsche left Wagner since Wagner was anti-semitic. (isn't my sig file particularly relevant?) [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 02:47:59 -0600 (CST) From: David Ebrey Subject: [The Edge] David's corrections I wrote: >Nietzsche gets a lot of flak for views he did not have (his >sister -- a Nazi -- got a hold of his works and "edited" them), so I have a >certain impulse to careful to describe terms like "Aryan" and "Will to power". That should be: I have an impulse to be careful when describing terms like "Aryan" and "Will to power". >(isn't my sig file particularly relevant?) not if I don't show it to you... David - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Youth culture killed my dog -- They Might Be Giants [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:36:43 -0500 From: "John M. Baker" Subject: [The Edge] Bad news about my OTE email campaign idea Unfortunately, because I really am becoming too busy, I will not be able to start the campaign. For all of you that wished to sign up, I'm very glad you did! Take this as a hint, everyone... if anyone would like to start a game, you'll have quite a few people jump on the chance with very imaginative characters! John Baker [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:09:29 -0500 From: Brandon Blackmoor Subject: [The Edge] Thundarr the Barbarian I have updated the web site for Under the Broken Moon, the Thundarr the Barbarian Role-Playing Game: There are minor rule fixes (nothing major), and I have episode synopses for five episodes (with more on the way): Episode 2: Harvest of Doom Episode 3: Raiders of the Abyss Episode 4: Mindok the Mind Menace Episode 20: Master of the Stolen Sunsword Episode 21: Trial by Terror The game's mechanics are adapted from the 1992 edition of Over the Edge (TM) (Jonathan Tweet, Robin D. Laws). ======================================= Brandon Blackmoor "Liberty is rendered even more Black Gate precious by the recollection Publishing of servitude." -- Cicero ==================================== For Blackmoor's public PGP key, Key fingerprint = 9A EB 73 FA 64 50 C2 F8 13 76 6D 41 68 F4 DE D3 [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge ------------------------------ End of The Edge Digested V1 #22 ******************************* [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge-digest [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge-digest To get off digest, subscribe the-edge [O] To post a message, send it to the-edge@robin.ml.org