From: owner-the-edge-digest@ (The Edge Digested) To: the-edge-digest@robin-nvh.bvsd.k12.co.us Subject: The Edge Digested V1 #8 Reply-To: the-edge@robin-nvh.bvsd.k12.co.us Sender: owner-the-edge-digest@ Errors-To: owner-the-edge-digest@ Precedence: bulk The Edge Digested Monday, November 24 1997 Volume 01 : Number 008 Today's subjects from The Edge: Re: [The Edge] The Name Throckmorton Re: [The Edge] The Name Throckmorton Re: Re: [The Edge] The Name Throckmorton Re: [The Edge] The Name Throckmorton Re: [The Edge] Re:The Chaos Plague [The Edge] Cloaks Price Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Price Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Price RE: [The Edge] Cloaks Price [The Edge] Obvious change of subject...Music! Re: [The Edge] The Name Throckmorton Re: [The Edge] Obvious change of subject...Music! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:09:51 +0100 From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois_Uldry?=" Subject: Re: [The Edge] The Name Throckmorton > >Throckmomrton (n.) >The soul of a departed madman: one of those now known to inhabit the timing >mechanism of pop-up toasters. > >The town which they took this name from is in west Texas, but there is also >a Throckmorton, TN. Do either of these cities have anything to do with >the Throckmorton we all know and behave? Or is it just a weird cooincidence? Something not to forget is the Throckmorton who tried to stage a junta in Great Britain, he failed and was hanged ;) Maybe the Throckmorton device kept him alive and it took 300 years to heal his broken neck ? l8r, Fu. Editor of a big and nasty homepage at: http://www.io.com/~avi/ Take a look and... Will close down on the end of april ! [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:32:23 +0000 From: Jon and Paula Subject: Re: [The Edge] The Name Throckmorton >> >>Throckmomrton (n.) >>The soul of a departed madman: one of those now known to inhabit the timing >>mechanism of pop-up toasters. >> >>The town which they took this name from is in west Texas, but there is also >>a Throckmorton, TN. Do either of these cities have anything to do with >>the Throckmorton we all know and behave? Or is it just a weird >cooincidence? > > >Something not to forget is the Throckmorton who tried to stage a junta in >Great Britain, he failed and was hanged ;) > >Maybe the Throckmorton device kept him alive and it took 300 years to heal >his broken neck ? Don't forget Elizabeth Throckmorton, who was Walter Raleigh's wife in the time of Elizabeth I Jon [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:37:47 -0500 (EST) From: StevenA197@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re: [The Edge] The Name Throckmorton In a message dated 11/24/97 6:34:09 AM, jandp@EASYNET.CO.UK wrote: >Don't forget Elizabeth Throckmorton, who was Walter Raleigh's wife in the >time of Elizabeth I Oh man! I went to High School with a Throckmorton! And he got all the girls... [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:07:26 -0800 From: Gregory Blake Subject: Re: [The Edge] The Name Throckmorton At 05:09 AM 11/24/97 +0100, you wrote: >> >>Throckmomrton (n.) >>The soul of a departed madman: one of those now known to inhabit the timing >>mechanism of pop-up toasters. >> >>The town which they took this name from is in west Texas, but there is also >>a Throckmorton, TN. Do either of these cities have anything to do with >>the Throckmorton we all know and behave? Or is it just a weird >cooincidence? > > >Something not to forget is the Throckmorton who tried to stage a junta in >Great Britain, he failed and was hanged ;) > >Maybe the Throckmorton device kept him alive and it took 300 years to heal >his broken neck ? > My old housemate used to work in a hospital and one day she saw my OnTE cards and saw The Throckmorton Device and she started laughing hysterically. When I asked her what was so funny about it she told me they used the term Throckmorton at the hospital. It was the term for a male patient's uh... manhood... if it was erect. I guess nurses had to deal with such things when bathing patients and stuff. I too found it quite humorous. snooze - -- P Gregory Blake (aka snooze@deepseas,The Pause,TooMUSH,etc) P L Peace * Love * Unity * Respect L U email: snooze@crl.com | url: http://www.crl.com/~snooze U R whodp://ding.activerse.com/snooze | ICQ# 1367921 R [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:35:02 -0500 (EST) From: AtlasGames@AOL.COM Subject: Re: [The Edge] Re:The Chaos Plague From: Tammy Tayman : <> The answer, while it could get complicated, boils down to: No, it doesn't make a difference that the patent application was later. (And actually the original application was apparently filed in the summer of 1994, a few months before OnTE was released.) - -John Nephew President, Atlas Games [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:34:56 -0500 (EST) From: AtlasGames@AOL.COM Subject: [The Edge] Cloaks Price Hey, it's painful economic honesty time! Bryant writes: <> Ask and you shall receive! David Ebrey writes: <> To be honest, all of those books were woefully underpriced. CLOAKS will probably sell 700-800 copies in its first month, and maybe a dozen copies a month thereafter, based on what we've seen lately of OTE sales (e.g., The Myth of Self). I'll have a better guesstimate after Forgotten Lives ships. As an aside, this is 100-200 copies fewer than we might have seen a few years ago -- RPG sales are simply less than they used to be, for a number of reasons (bankrupt retailers and distributors, the CCG thang, etc.). Let's suppose 700 copies at $17.95. After a 60% discount to distributors (which doesn't count the ones that never pay us or take a somewhat higher discount for paying quickly), we're getting $7.18 per copy. Multiply by 700, that's a total of $5,026. Here are some costs. We'll print 1200 copies. That will cost $2,548, plus $144 to ship the books from the printer in Michigan to Minnesota. Add another $100 for miscellaneous costs (fedex bills for proofs and advance copies, print overrun, etc.). Total so far: $2792. We're paying Brent $225 for the cover art and design. I haven't assigned the interior artwork and maps yet, but I expect the bill will be a little over $400. Total so far: $3,417. Jonathan gets paid a flat $925 for having written the book. Total so far: $4,342. Where does that leave us? $5026 in receivables (assuming no major catastrophes, like distributors who go bankrupt without paying us), minus those basic costs of $4342, leaves "profit" of $684. But wait! We haven't considered other important costs (albeit ones less easily quantifiable) -- for instance, the $200-$300 we spend shipping the books to distributors; the salary we pay Link to telephone the distributors for their orders; the cost of those phone calls; the cost of the warehouse and office space... Oh, and then there's the cost of my time, putting in many hours of editing, layout, writing up promotional information, and coordinating everyone else involved in the project. Plus Jonathan gets a small royalty on everything in the OTE line. So, with a $17.95 price tag, we will probably lose money by publishing Cloaks. David added in another note: <> It's also more important to us that gamers pick up 2nd edition, since we can actually make money on that book. Core rules sell MUCH better than supplements, and have better re-order sales. Supplements, though they may make little money or even lose a little, serve to remind retailers and distributors that the core game still exists and maybe they should remember to keep it in stock. (Have I mentioned lately the calls we get from customers who have heard that OTE2 never came out and that in fact we are out of business...?) Lower prices on supplements sadly does not translate into higher sales; our biggest problem is simply getting the books into the retail outlets in the first place. (Higher prices may actually make that easier, since it's more dollar profit per sale to the retailer.) We can't afford to do many supplements -- OTE will probably get one or two per year. They will have to be expensive, but we're just aiming to break even. John Baker muses: <> I think the same argument applied when the book was $12. The recent rise in RPG prices (which IS a definite trend -- check recent TSR releases even) came AFTER the decline in sales (look at TSR's near-bankruptcy prior to the WotC buyout). We held prices steady on Cyberpunk supplements, for instance, while watching sales on new releases fall by 50% over the course of one year, and then fall further. We went from making a living to losing money (especially since that was happening while paper prices were skyrocketing). In any case, I want to thank everyone for being supportive here, and understanding. OTE has got to have some of the most thoughtful and intelligent fans in the world, and I am grateful not to be verbally assaulted on account of the pricing. I hope the numbers and thoughts above are informative to the curious. - -John Nephew President, Atlas Games [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:11:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Adam T. Ness" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Price On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 AtlasGames@AOL.COM wrote: > Jonathan gets paid a flat $925 for having written the book. Total so far: > $4,342. Wow, $1000 every few months? What do you people do for a day job? Even though you do take a loss on this stuff, I would love to see more supplements for OTE. It would be nice to see one on all the major conspiracies at least... Are there any plans to release a Kergillian sourcebook? That could be a fun one to put in. Another interesting thing would be Books on each of the Barrios. There isn't a whole lot in the OTE 1st ed. book on them. Just a simple map and some details on the inhabitants would be great. progasm: The intense explosion of pleasure when one of your programs compiles the first time without errors. [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:11:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Adam T. Ness" Subject: Re: [The Edge] Cloaks Price On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 AtlasGames@AOL.COM wrote: > Jonathan gets paid a flat $925 for having written the book. Total so far: > $4,342. Wow, $1000 every few months? What do you people do for a day job? Even though you do take a loss on this stuff, I would love to see more supplements for OTE. It would be nice to see one on all the major conspiracies at least... Are there any plans to release a Kergillian sourcebook? That could be a fun one to put in. Another interesting thing would be Books on each of the Barrios. There isn't a whole lot in the OTE 1st ed. book on them. Just a simple map and some details on the inhabitants would be great. progasm: The intense explosion of pleasure when one of your programs compiles the first time without errors. [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:25:22 -0800 From: "Steven Feldon (Exchange)" Subject: RE: [The Edge] Cloaks Price So, I hate to bring up having taken economics, but how elastic is the demand for a sourcebook like this? If you upped the price to $20, how many fewer copies would you sell, versus $18? On the other hand, this would generate around another $1500, no? I personally know that if I'm going to buy an rpg book, an extra couple of bucks isn't going to make or break the deal. steve -----Original Message----- From: AtlasGames@AOL.COM [SMTP:AtlasGames@AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, November 24, 1997 1:35 PM To: the-edge@robin.ml.org Subject: [The Edge] Cloaks Price Hey, it's painful economic honesty time! Bryant writes: <> Ask and you shall receive! David Ebrey writes: <> To be honest, all of those books were woefully underpriced. CLOAKS will probably sell 700-800 copies in its first month, and maybe a dozen copies a month thereafter, based on what we've seen lately of OTE sales (e.g., The Myth of Self). I'll have a better guesstimate after Forgotten Lives ships. As an aside, this is 100-200 copies fewer than we might have seen a few years ago -- RPG sales are simply less than they used to be, for a number of reasons (bankrupt retailers and distributors, the CCG thang, etc.). Let's suppose 700 copies at $17.95. After a 60% discount to distributors (which doesn't count the ones that never pay us or take a somewhat higher discount for paying quickly), we're getting $7.18 per copy. Multiply by 700, that's a total of $5,026. Here are some costs. We'll print 1200 copies. That will cost $2,548, plus $144 to ship the books from the printer in Michigan to Minnesota. Add another $100 for miscellaneous costs (fedex bills for proofs and advance copies, print overrun, etc.). Total so far: $2792. We're paying Brent $225 for the cover art and design. I haven't assigned the interior artwork and maps yet, but I expect the bill will be a little over $400. Total so far: $3,417. Jonathan gets paid a flat $925 for having written the book. Total so far: $4,342. Where does that leave us? $5026 in receivables (assuming no major catastrophes, like distributors who go bankrupt without paying us), minus those basic costs of $4342, leaves "profit" of $684. But wait! We haven't considered other important costs (albeit ones less easily quantifiable) -- for instance, the $200-$300 we spend shipping the books to distributors; the salary we pay Link to telephone the distributors for their orders; the cost of those phone calls; the cost of the warehouse and office space... Oh, and then there's the cost of my time, putting in many hours of editing, layout, writing up promotional information, and coordinating everyone else involved in the project. Plus Jonathan gets a small royalty on everything in the OTE line. So, with a $17.95 price tag, we will probably lose money by publishing Cloaks. David added in another note: <> It's also more important to us that gamers pick up 2nd edition, since we can actually make money on that book. Core rules sell MUCH better than supplements, and have better re-order sales. Supplements, though they may make little money or even lose a little, serve to remind retailers and distributors that the core game still exists and maybe they should remember to keep it in stock. (Have I mentioned lately the calls we get from customers who have heard that OTE2 never came out and that in fact we are out of business...?) Lower prices on supplements sadly does not translate into higher sales; our biggest problem is simply getting the books into the retail outlets in the first place. (Higher prices may actually make that easier, since it's more dollar profit per sale to the retailer.) We can't afford to do many supplements -- OTE will probably get one or two per year. They will have to be expensive, but we're just aiming to break even. John Baker muses: <> I think the same argument applied when the book was $12. The recent rise in RPG prices (which IS a definite trend -- check recent TSR releases even) came AFTER the decline in sales (look at TSR's near-bankruptcy prior to the WotC buyout). We held prices steady on Cyberpunk supplements, for instance, while watching sales on new releases fall by 50% over the course of one year, and then fall further. We went from making a living to losing money (especially since that was happening while paper prices were skyrocketing). In any case, I want to thank everyone for being supportive here, and understanding. OTE has got to have some of the most thoughtful and intelligent fans in the world, and I am grateful not to be verbally assaulted on account of the pricing. I hope the numbers and thoughts above are informative to the curious. -John Nephew President, Atlas Games [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:08:59 -0500 (EST) From: James Lloyd Sorrell Subject: [The Edge] Obvious change of subject...Music! Well, to get away from all the economics and business and stuff, I'd like to make an observation. The Lost Highway soundtrack is not only an excellent album, but I think it would fit very appropriately in an OTE game. It has scores from the movie, some cool jazz tracks, a David Bowie tune, some stuff from Trent Reznor and NIN, and even a couple Marilyn Manson tracks (unfortunate, but even those have at least a bit of atmosphere to them, if for nothing else than a tasteless nightclub scene:) Basically, this has to be one of the best albums I've ever heard, particularly for adding to the flavor of an OTE game. I know this is a rehashed subject, but music fascinates me, especially what other people play when they're roleplaying. So, I guess I'll try and start up a thread...what music do you use for your OTE games? I can't say as I've had any games recently *sniff* but I'm still curious. I would like to say that I think I've found a pretty good theme song for Compton: King for a Day by Faith No More. The first time I heard the song, the Wickedest Man on Al Amarja just popped right into my head; it just seems right. OK, I'm now officially rambling so will cease and give you all back your peace. As much as you get anyway. Later Jim - -- Jim Sorrell sjamesl@bgnet.bgsu.edu Residential Network Consultant 216 Kohl Hall (419) 372-3759 [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:53:37 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Re: [The Edge] The Name Throckmorton On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Gregory Blake wrote: > My old housemate used to work in a hospital and one day she saw my OnTE > cards and saw The Throckmorton Device and she started laughing > hysterically. When I asked her what was so funny about it she told me they > used the term Throckmorton at the hospital. It was the term for a male > patient's uh... manhood... if it was erect. I guess nurses had to deal > with such things when bathing patients and stuff. I too found it quite > humorous. > It makes sense, I guess. Clyde Throckmorton always struck me as a... well, you know. alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "Greenland is a cold, barren land, a land that bears no green, Where there's ice and snow and the whale-fishes blow, and the sun is seldom seen" -- "Greenland Whale Fisheries" (Traditional) [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:23:11 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Kinney Subject: Re: [The Edge] Obvious change of subject...Music! On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, James Lloyd Sorrell wrote: > thread...what music do you use for your OTE games? I can't say as I've > My OTE series' "main theme" is/was (might resume, don't know yet) the Guild's "Chaos" (don't go looking for this -- they're a Bowling Green, Ky based band, and aren't on a lable... at least not yet); I used another song of theirs, "Mess," as a background for a Compton party. They Might Be Giants and Nine Inch Nails figured in a lot of the other sessions... although once I threw Weird Al Yankovic's "Everything You Know Is Wrong" at them. :-) The one thing I never got to do... I was going to invent an Irish pub named O'hawhool's (named loosely after an old BBSing friend :-), run by a Martian (thus dark complected) dressed like a leprechaun and with his hair dyed a bright orange. His speech would be a melange of Arabic, Irish, and Scottish accents. And the music... well, I have all of these CDs of awful, Lawrence Welk-ized Irish music (although from time to time, I would throw in the Clancys, Dubliners, or Pogues just because I could). alberich@iglou.com | Mark Kinney | http://www.iglou.com/nations "Greenland is a cold, barren land, a land that bears no green, Where there's ice and snow and the whale-fishes blow, and the sun is seldom seen" -- "Greenland Whale Fisheries" (Traditional) [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge your@email.add ------------------------------ End of The Edge Digested V1 #8 ****************************** [O] You received this message because you are subscribed to the-edge-digest [0] To (un)subscribe, send a message to majordomo@robin.ml.org with body of [O] (un)subscribe the-edge-digest your@email.add [O] To post a message, send it to the-edge@robin.ml.org